"If you could bring one piece of technology back to 100 years before it was invented, what would you choose (E.g. Steam Engine was patented 1698 so you go back to 1598 and spread steam engine technology)"
This is a discussion I had around that question:

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

I bring back Electricity networks.

That way, Tesla (the guy) will make his inventions on a 100 years more mature network, not losing his most precious years in making it more robust.

Plus, maybe we would have electric cars popular before (they existed really early, but the electricity wasn't easily available and died)

Can we flip the question and make the whole "oil" thing 100 years later? To stop the ugly oil monopoly?

╞═════╕A:╘═════╡

Germ theory

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

Yknow for germ theory, as a side effect, It probably would have clashed with Ecclesiastical authorities, and helped to promote separation of state and Church in Western Christian countries, reducing it's interference with public education and accelerating science in general

the doctrine that illness are caused by microscopic organisms

in contrast to the prevailing theory at the time when "doctors" believed illness was caused by an unbalance of 4 fluids in the human body including blood

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

I'm not sure if "clashed with Ecclesiastical authorities" is necessarily a good thing.

The western world is modeled by Christianity, but that's actually helpful for many things.

Some countries still think that if you steal and you don't get caught, it's still a good thing, so everyone fears everyone.

That might have slowed down (or prevented) the industrialization and globalization.

... which might not be a bad thing, but it would be a wildly different world, for so many reasons, and "science" might NOT have come out accelerated, out of that

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

This is a separate discussion but Ecclesiastical Authorities vs Widespread faith is an important distinction. 1) We see this amongst Christians who don't identify as a part of a specific denomination or Ecclesiastical authority (Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Evangelical etc) so these people in policy making positions would have done the important policy implementations. 2) Other faiths that would have been present due to increased trade and growing internationalism at the time would not have been inhibited by the Ecclesiastical entity, so they would have played a part without the political entity which was the church

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

Alright, so how does the germ theory reduce Ecclesiastical Authorities, but not Widespread faith?

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

I wouldn't say it'll be a direct confrontation

but we saw how the Church treated Galileo during his time

His Heliocentric theory was not something that contradicted the faith

but it was something that had friction with the centralized authoritarianism of the Church

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

Sure, I get the difference.

What I mean is that they are very tied, no?

Also, wouldn't the church just slow down the "germ theory"

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

so the early implementation of Germ theory could potentially cause a similar friction

oh they absolutely will try to

and they did i believe

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

wait, so what DID reduce the "Ecclesiastical Authorities"

demography?

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

I mean a lot of things tried but you look at the present information network capabilities of the Vatican and you know it isn't LOL

The key thing is the close ties between the church and the state, not the religion itself or the theology you see the distinction in Christianity quite clearly in the doctrines, for example regarding Pork in the Bible it clearly states that Jesus pbuH said touch not the flesh of swine but the church decrees that this was only due to hygiene issues of the time

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

"Tis not a swine, tis a pig" :)

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

so Christians today eat pork

which was important because the pork industry was very big

so Church != Christianity

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

hygiene issues huh ...

did the germ theory make Christians eat pork?

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

Lmaooo I don't think the relation there is strong

also even before germ theory the idea of "uncleanliness" existed

so probably not

although it was mistaken and also included stuff that was racist etc lol

But yeah the Christian culture is a great example where Theology and Religious Authority are very very distinct and conflating them can be very problematic

going back to what you said earlier: "Alright, so how does the germ theory reduce Ecclesiastical Authorities, but not Widespread faith?", Germ theory would have served the people, inhibiting this, and inhibiting education in general has always been a major part of the Church's strategy in maintaining their authority.

So Germ theory would not have caused the same level of conflict with the general believer as it would have with the Ecclesiastical authorities

but this is all hypothetical so disclaimer lol

╞═════╕A:╘═════╡

Germ theory is nice because it could help with general sewer and sanitation also probably would help the black plague a lot

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

absolutely

╞═════╕A:╘═════╡

figuring out is was the rats

and would make the early surgeries much more successfull

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

That makes me think of a video I saw ... I can't find it, but it talked about how a revolution works differently than a virus.

Comparing to popularity: If someone popular likes something, it becomes viral because that person has relations with a lot of people.

But if someone popular wants to start a revolution, it dies out.

Revolutions come from unpopular people...

Anyway, just saying that there would need to have the right amount of people that badly want germ theory not to be silenced to overrun the Church in a "revolution"

And they would kill less crazy cat ladies

and B likes cats

(They thought that the "crazy cat ladies" were witches, because they didn't get the plague, but it's because their cats killed the rats)

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

LMAO

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

Our history has a surprisingly high amount of witches

Anything sent back 100 years would be considered witchcraft and killed immediately?

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

and you see that a lot of these manic "religious" events like the witch hunts, reconquistas, forced conversions were more tied to Ecclesiastical authorities than they were to the actual faith

which were in turn always tied to economic/political agendas

btw this is not limited to Christianity. In Japan, Shinto priests and temples used to have massive political authority, and in fact the Emperor's authority depended on the Shinto doctrine of the Emperor being a "Holy" being. They also did "divinations" with which they could manipulate policy. In contrast, the faith in practice was a typical naturalist/polytheist faith that the people practiced to varying degrees.

You see something similar in Hinduism where it's influence on the Bharat Kingdom (India) is iconic, namely in the caste system which gave massive authority to the "Bramin" caste class. However in true practice the Hindu faith had great variance and Sampradayas

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

So why did it change?

How could they possibly lose all of that power, everywhere?

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

what do you mean change?

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

They don't have as much power now

Is it just passing generations?

Population growing too fast?

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

as you said, Christianity (church) has played a big part in forming how the Western countries are.

It's influence is still very prominent

However the main thing might be that at least overt connections between church and state has reduced

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

Yeah and there's no way that church could slow down a new science theory

(or any religion, in most places)

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

https://www.christianpost.com/news/eco-christians-call-for-creation-day.html

https://www.businessinsider.in/politics/world/news/the-christian-nationalist-boot-camp-p[…]g-anti-trans-laws-across-america/articleshow/94500654.cms

https://www.businessinsider.in/politics/world/news/the-christian-nationalist-boot-camp-pushing-anti-trans-laws-across-america/articleshow/94500654.cms

it makes more sense i think if you think of the church now as a Lobby adjacent?

You also see nationalist movements in india

escept its tied not to Indian nationalism but hinduism

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

Like there's no way that the pope could make the Crusades again

(I don't know if it was the pope...)

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

oh you dont think so?

https://www.columbusjewishnews.com/jns/new-christian-conference-of-presidents-aims-to-supp[…]srael/article_6e895ab0-1873-5295-afee-d7889fcdafd1.html

https://www.columbusjewishnews.com/jns/new-christian-conference-of-presidents-aims-to-support-israel/article_6e895ab0-1873-5295-afee-d7889fcdafd1.html

I mean the pope of the vatican may not

but Ecclesiastical entities in other western countries definitely have financial influences

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

So are you saying that they still have the same power, but they're trying to make it more silently?

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

maybe not the same power but we do see it's still present in a different form

I think maybe a good comparison is if we were to think of it as it went from an internal federal division into an independent lobby

at least that's the case in terms of Churches in Western countries

always important to make that specification i think

╞═════╕A:╘═════╡

They wish they had the same power

I think is the main thing

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

things like intention and what they "want" is beyond what I could speak on all I can give are my observations on what they actually do have

╞═════╕A:╘═════╡

Also us politics the republican are very aligned with big religious organisation for a country with no offficial religion

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

exactly

╞═════╕A:╘═════╡

I think Quebec is a weird outlier compared to most of the rest of the world

With the revolution tranquile

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

They don't have an official religion, but we all know that the US is super religious...

In god we trust

╞═════╕A:╘═════╡

We seem to have much less religion permitting public life than even English Canada

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

the irony of them passing secular policies to ban religious symbols in a room adorned by a cross

╞═════╕A:╘═════╡

Yeah the cognitive dissonance is real

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

You know, I never thought about it that way ... maybe Quebec is an outlier 🤔

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

this is why its super important to make that distinction between the Ecclesiastical entity which is a POLITICAL entity, vs the Faith and belief system which is tied more to the people and culture

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

yeah I was comparing politics to popularity/viral, and faith to revolution...

Did Quebec have a religious revolution?

It's weird because ... My mother is still religious, but didn't want to push it onto us 🤔

She's like a "just in case" religious, while her parents were very religious.

Something happened in that generation (Because I know many of her age are like that, breaking the chain)

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

I think that's absolutely sensible

well I don't know about 'generations' but if you think about what the Abrahamic faith ultimately is supposed to be, is guidance regarding one's own relationship with God right? so the very idea of "pushing" or "compulsion" upon someone else makes no sense in terms of the belief right?

so I very much respect your mother in this sense

╞═════╕A:╘═════╡

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9volution_tranquille

"La Révolution tranquille désigne une période de transformation et de modernisation du Québec dans les années 1960. Elle est caractérisée par l'action intensément réformiste et nationaliste du gouvernement du Québec de l'époque, initiée par l'équipe du tonnerre de Jean Lesage de 1960 à 1966 et continuée par l'équipe de Daniel Johnson de 1966 à 1968. Cette période peut se définir par une série de réformes sociales, économiques et politiques à l’intérieur d'un cadre démocratique et d'une économie libérale, inspirées par des idées keynésiennes renforçant l'intervention de l'État dans la vie des citoyens. Elles ont mené à la réforme complète du système d'éducation, du système de santé, ainsi qu'à…"

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

oooooh ye ye

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

Well, the most religious people teach their children very young, it's almost brainwashing at that point

And the stockholm syndrom is built-in many religious rituals

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

this is a great point I talked to a friend about in depth recently

cuz even if it isn't the parents' intention to, just that disproportionate level of exposure to the culture surrounding the faith can greatly influence the child

╞═════╕A:╘═════╡

I think they proved that praying rewires your brain in a way that's visible on scans

I'll try to find my source for that

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

when they say Praying what does it point to?

this point on Religious upbringing being brainwashing though isn't a uniquely religious matter.

We grow up in an environment that tells us money is important

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

yeah, we're all brainwashed in a way, our brain is malleable enough to be able to survive anywhere, and our parents are supposed to tell us how

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

we grow up in an environment that says slim is beautiful, being bombarded from a young age through ads

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

what used to be the "family", and a small group, a "village" or whatever.

Became media and everything ...

Let's all go back to small tribes!

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

at some point though we have to take responsibility for ourselves

so like for instance my family was actually in a weird Buddhist cult

and my mother and aunt really pushed it onto me

but at one point I took it into my own hands to look at others and find truth

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

oh I thought about that the other day ...

Some people CAN'T take responsibility to themselves (for example some people were called the "village idiot"), they were taken care of by the religion circles.

So it's a good "equalizer", kind of like schools are doing, making it easier for people who struggle

But some people just want to do more, and break out of the mold

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

right, and its again not just religion

people who realize about the indoctrination of Capitalism study politics

╞═════╕A:╘═════╡

Humans sucks in general is my default 😜

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

people who realize about the patriarchal normalizations may delve into feminism

Religion is often singled out when it comes to indoctrination but it's really only a part of a person's ideological development

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

Is science in that category?

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

think about nationalism and blind faith in their country

ill quoted science could be, yes

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

Science is similar to religion, in the sense that we need to believe in something, and you can believe in science.

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

you see people without a solid understanding of scientific methodology dogmatically quote scientific papers as absolute truths 👍

well no the difference is with proper scientific method you can quantize uncertainty

so when I write a paper's abstract I will say we found with beyond 95% confidence that the hypothesis is true

the similarity comes when then someone ignorant of the methodology takes it and say its absolute truth

like "SCIENTISTS FIND OUT BLAH BLAH BLAH"

and misuse the authority that comes with science

another is people who fail to understand the limitations of Occams razor

and try to disprove things using theories not theorems

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

that's true ...

oh wait ...

Is it the opposite?

Like ... I don't want to say dumb, but like ... "lower IQ people" (LIP) (which isn't necessarily a bad thing!) thrive in indoctrination, because of the social circles it created.

So:

Indoctrination keeps LIP, some people break out, most find science.

Of people only shown science, LIP either take science wrong, or break out and find things like flat earth, or religions, etc.

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

indoctrination is not a 1 dimensional scale

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

well ok, wrong word

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

well not word

as in this idea of looking at IQ, science etc in this one dimension of "intelligence" would be very limiting in talking about "indoctrination"

if we are talking about nationalist indoctrination people who break out will find internationalism and liberty

if we are talking about patriarchal indoctrination people who break out will find female empowerment

if we are talking about capitalist indoctrination people will find meaning in life other than worldly posessions

and if we are talking about the third one religion can sometimes be the thing that helps to BREAK that capitalist indoctrination

in the context of the emergence of Islam, a time and place when Men had absolute authority over women and slaves as the norm, it was Islam that helped break that norm and widespread indoctrination by introducing women's rights, promoting the freeing of slaves etc

this is what I mean when I say "indoctrination" is not necessarily one dimension

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

yeah yeah, there's just so many things going on, I was trying to generalize and failed. IQ is also not what I meant, I was just trying to make some connections... 😔

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

Yeah for sure, it’s very challenging to generalize

I think if I was to try and generalize, indoctrination comes down to the “narrowing of an individual’s perspective”

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

(I was looking up IQ the other day, and ... it is a VERY, VERY narrow measure. I don't know why people make such a big deal out of it...)

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

This is why you see people who travel more and have exposure to more diverse perspectives to be less prone to indoctrination. Likewise with people who are more widely read for the same reason

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

(It's basically only pattern recognition) (a small slice of pattern recognition)

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

Yeah for sure, it’s a convenient metric albeit with very limited capability in informing us about a person

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

Like ... IQ can be useful to know if it's very low, assuming it was not culturally biased, otherwise ... 🤷‍

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

For sure yeah

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

The army won't take people with IQ under 80.

If the army doesn't want you, you have something bad going on man ...

(But also, it shows that you are probably not autonomous, which is still important in the army, even though you need to follow orders)

Anyway, that was the IQ part...

I just meant that some people thrive when they only have to follow and not think.

I don't know what word could describe that...

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

Non-critical in thinking?

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

Also if by “thrive” you mean they are “comfortable” yeah that absolutely makes sense

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

yeah, some people feel stuck but never change.

Makes me think of that dude in "Fantastic Beasts"

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

What dude? Sorry I haven’t watched fantastic beasts

Looked cool for sure

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

Credence Barebone

https://villains.fandom.com/wiki/Credence_Barebone

"Credence Barebone is a secret wizard and Mary Lou Barebone's troubled adopted son. Unaware of his origins or that he has magical powers, Credence harbors enormous rage, which turns into a dangerous Obscurus, having been tormented for years by his abusive adoptive mother."

╞═════╕B:╘═════╡

Oooh cool

╞═════╕Me:╘═════╡

Anyway ...

He's scared, basically ...

and some people are scared into religion, or other groups

but some people love it

aaaaand we're back to witches

Electricity, Germs, Religion, Pork, Power, Witches, Revolution and Thriving

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